hardball with chris matthews, transcript 8/30/17 harvey hits beaumont - health care appliances

Display: HARDBALLDate: August 30, 2017 guest: Chris Buskirk, Zerlina Maxwell, Jonathan Turley, MP Jackson, Noah Rosman, Kaitlyn Hugh
Guest host: Harvey Burns, Philip benstephen conatch.
This is a hard ball. Good evening.
I'm Steve conatch from Chris Matthews.
Harvey continues to rage in southeastern Texas and the state of Luis Anna.
It rained heavily in two cities in bormont and Port Arthur.
The flood in Beaumont got worse after more than 2 feet of the rainfall.
We continue to see the dramatic emergence of helicopter rescue, and naval helicopters rushed to transport trapped civilians to a safe place.
Even the sanctuary is now full of water in Port Arthur.
In Beaumont, authorities confirmed the killing of a woman.
After her little daughter was rescued, she was rushed into the flooded drain.
She was found holding her mother tightly.
After their van was washed away by the flood, six family members were killed in Bayou, Green.
Harvey's death toll in Texas is currently 21.
Texas Governor Greg Abbott has activated 14,000 Texas National Guard soldiers, saying the worst is not over yet. (
Start Video Editing)GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R)
Texas: All in all, we have now reached the highest level of Texas National Guard members who have been deployed to help our fellow Texans cope with these challenges.
More than 32,000 people live in shelters in the state.
It is important that we have about 30,000 beds to provide shelter as needed. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: At the same time, the rain in Houston has stopped, but the flooding continues as the evacuation progresses.
Sylvester Turner, the city's mayor, has attacked the federal government's response. (
Start Video Editing)
Mayor Turner (D)
Houston: I hope people at the federal level, the top guys, will understand that this is catastrophic, they will react, they won't let us down, you do the cleanup, send us the bill later.
This is totally unacceptable.
We need a lot of delegates from the federal emergency response agency now. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: It all happened when President Trump tried to answer critics who said he didn't do enough yesterday to talk about the victims of these floods.
We will finish it in a minute.
But with regard to the situation on the spot, NBC's Miguel Almagor also joined me.
He is reporting rescue work in Orange, Texas.
Miguel, where are you? You're east of Houston.
Houston has received so much attention in the past few days.
The storm has now moved through where you are.
Give us a scene if you want.
NBC News: Steve, we're close to Beaumont.
So many rescues have taken place there.
In fact, we are very close to Beaumont and you can get it before the water divides the city.
If you can think of the city of Beaumont, it's actually an island tonight.
We were with the Navy and they also took Coast Guard members and were ready to launch this morning near Texas A & M and when they got A call to Beaumont they went to the Houston area, because so many people are in trouble.
During our time in the air, we landed over Beaumont, where we could see a few people in need of rescue.
As the Beaumont floods began to rise, the Air Force and the Navy worked together one by one to suddenly lift about 300 people to a safe place.
They airlifted all these people back to Orange, Texas, where they came to a convention center where I could check in and get some help, they can also organize their lives together.
However, we sat in a helicopter with them, one by one, and young children, aged 7 or even 11, and their parents were pulled to a safe place.
Of course they are very scared and very relieved.
Imagine they were at home, went to bed overnight, and there was no water at home.
Then when they woke up, they said, it was at their feet, near their bed.
For so many people who were dragged out of that area today, it was a terrible situation, and when they were finally taken to a safe zone, those fearful faces we were with the air.
When the wind blows, they are dragged onto those descent systems, those emergency baskets, as the rain blows sideways.
It was a painful experience for those who walked out of the flood zone, many of them, 300, were lucky to be here, and they got this from Steve, who is alive in bormon, very pleased.
Okay, Miguel Almagor of NBC, in Orange, Texas.
Thank you, Miguel.
The response to the storm-well, it brought in the best video of the community, the neighborhood forming the human chain-look at this-to help a pregnant woman in Houston, the volunteers used their boats to participate in the search to rescue the victims of the flood caused by Harvey.
Tony Wade, Jr.
One of those volunteers.
He's the commander of the Cajun Coast search and rescue team.
They are based in Anna, Louis.
He's calling me now. ph), Louisiana.
Thanks, Toby. -Tony. thank you for taking a few minutes.
So, you are arranging this rescue operation on the boat heading to the flooded house.
On our screen, we see a lot of such scenes.
Let's go through this process.
When you come to a flooded family and try to rescue the occupants, what is the biggest challenge you are trying to do so?
Search and Rescue Tony Wade, Coast of LAvia telephone): Well (INAUDIBLE)
The biggest challenge right away (INAUDIBLE)
We are facing logistical problems. (INAUDIBLE)
There are so many dangers that we have to cross, drown cars, drown objects that we can't see (INAUDIBLE)
You know, it's just the boat that lifts people from the water to the boat or from home to the boat-it's a constant physical struggle.
KORNACKI: We talked a lot here-we're looking at some scenes here.
This is from Houston.
I don't think you can see it, but it was done by volunteers in Houston for pregnant women.
The help you get-you are a volunteer team.
Talk about this-the work that people, just community members, volunteers are doing.
As far as community members help community members, what do you see on the ground? WADE: (INAUDIBLE)
This really gives you confidence in humanity.
People leave their families and come here to help and support the victims of this flood.
On the days when we were out, we were fed by many people.
Just-I mean, just the heart-Look warm (INAUDIBLE)
In the interest of neighbors or community members who have lost everything, getting together is basically desperate.
KORNACKI: Well, what's the reaction?
When you get to one of the houses, you know, maybe they're in the attic, maybe they're on the top floor, maybe on the roof, you can bring your boat up, you can save these trapped people from home.
What was that moment like?
What is their reaction?
What are they talking about?
Wade: Well, a lot of times, they don't say much.
I mean, it's very emotional.
They're under a lot of pressure. They`re scared.
They are confused.
They don't know what will happen to them.
Just to see there-the one we saved said it was like-it was like heaven opened and put us in that place.
This is very emotional.
We saved an Asian family who spoke very little English a few days ago, but it's just-there's no need to say something.
I mean, the face, the expression, the hug, the Kiss are all their own. explanatory.
This is a wonderful feeling for both sides, a relief for them, and a feeling (INAUDIBLE)
For us, we were actually able to get them out of there alive and in good condition.
KORNACKI: I think you're going to see your community and that area that you probably never thought you 'd see.
I mean, we saw a lot of footage in the media on the highway a week ago that had cars on them and now it looks like a river and in some cases it looks like an ocean.
I know this is good in the future, but when you're walking around the area, are you part of your thinking ahead of time about when these waters will recede? After the reconstruction project?
Wade: Yes, we will go through a few stages.
You know, right now, we're in the rescue phase and actually tomorrow, we're going to move to another place where the water has receded and we're going (INAUDIBLE)our K-
The 9 teams will actually start the recovery process to help find the dead or people trapped under the rubble but not yet found. And (INAUDIBLE)
It will be very emotional for all of us (ph).
But after that, yes, weINAUDIBLE)
To help these communities clean up the garbage, then we will help people rebuild their homes, clean up the garbage and let them go home again.
Okay, Tony Wade, you're working as a hero.
The same people you work.
Thank you for taking a few minutes-Tony Wade and the Cajun Coast search and rescue team.
Meanwhile, NBC's Kerry Sanders-who is joining us now.
He's on a rescue helicopter.
He's in Beaumont, Texas.
We have been talking about what happened in Beaumont.
Kerry, what did you see?
I think it's a bit difficult for us to hear Kerry there.
Let's see if we can make the connection again.
He took a helicopter over Beaumont, Texas.
If we re-establish, we will check in with Kerry.
Meanwhile, while the rescue in Houston continues, Texas Senator Ted Cruz today assessed the local response. Take a listen. (
Start Video Editing)SEN. TED CRUZ (R)
We saw the Houston people coming together, but each of us thanked.
The death toll from the disaster could be much higher. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Cruz said he and another senator in the state, John Konen, will lead the financial battle for recovery efforts in Congress.
But he doubled his vote on the super storm Sandy fund in 2013. (
Start Video Editing)
Cruz: $50 billion, 70% of which is not emergency aid.
Only 30% of the bill is emergency aid.
KORNACKI: it's because Chris Christie, governor of New Jersey, took a photo of himself last night in Cruz for the claim. (
Start Video Editing)
Unidentified male: 2 out of 3-where do you get a look like . . . . . . An unidentified woman has such a number :(INAUDIBLE)lying.
Male :. . . 2 out of 3? GOV.
Chris Christie (R)
Well, he just made it up.
I mean, you know, Ted is very good at this.
He just made it up.
You know, I know. He made it up.
You know, he's talking about playing politics, and that's what he did for people's lives in 2012 and 2013.
He should have stood up now and said, you know? I was wrong.
I was wrong in 2012.
Woman: Thank you.
Christie: this is the wrong thing to do. now I hope people in New Jersey and New York are willing to let things go. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Texas Governor Greg Abbott said today that federal funding for Harvey will far exceed the $120 billion federal funding provided after Hurricane Katrina.
Democrat Hillary Jackson Lee is with me now.
She represents downtown Houston.
Thank you, honorable woman.
Okay, look, I have to ask, you have Governor Christie in New Jersey and he went through it with Sandy a few years ago.
Ted Cruz is in your hands.
I think you're with him today.
Some members of Congress are reluctant to agree to the Sandy financing plan five years ago, before year 45-will this be considered in Congress's debate about deciding how much Texas will get after this tragedy? REP.
Lee JacksonD)
TEXAS: Well, I want to look to the future, the future is a catastrophic event that no one has ever seen.
I sympathize with and sympathize with every disaster, whether it's sandy, whether it's Katrina, Rita, or a tornado in Alabama.
No matter where the American people suffer, we must unite in Congress.
Frankly, I think what I heard from my colleagues in Washington was-my colleagues kept calling me.
I spoke to the Speaker of the House, the Democratic leadership.
What they say is that there will be no disagreement between them, no sunshine, no need for Texas, and I will believe what they say.
Now, I am writing an aid bill for the house and I would like to introduce it for $152 billion.
It could, frankly, rise more.
I welcome the support of the two senators of the United States and their leadership, and I look forward to the leadership of both parties.
Let me tell you that people are dying.
Rescue is still needed.
As Mayor Beaumont said, they are under water.
People are heroes.
We lost a wonderful member of the Houston Police Department who left home and said, I have to go to work.
Unfortunately, he lost his life.
We lost this wonderful family in my constituency.
So I feel the pain of the people who are still suffering.
Let me say that.
We could lose 30,000 to 40,000 homes and thousands of cars.
These numbers will be astronomical.
We don't have time for anyone to allocate money to Texas.
Yes, you mentioned some -- cars, houses.
Do you have a feeling-which day or so can you make your head at this point --to-
The daily life of Houston and the area will be like the first few years after a few months?
Due to this storm, what will it look like in a year?
Lee: Well, let me tell you that we heard from those who have experienced this situation, and the experts, the representative of the federal emergency response authority, that this could be a recovery for many years, after years of recovery, our local officials, mayors, county judges and others.
What I have seen is already where the flood was before-yes, last year we had something called the "Tax Day flood", the Memorial Day flood.
One area I represent, Green's point of view, those people, those families have suffered more than twice as much.
But what happened was that people were taking water.
Hang up the carpet again.
Some of them are brand names. new.
They're looking at the missing appliances.
They are looking at the lost clothes.
They are looking at the lost school books and the souvenirs are lost.
This will be a step-by-step process.
Can I tell you, when I was at the shelter last night, a lady came up riding a walker and she was heading to FEMA's office and we finally got it set up and finally sent it to the shelter
She started to go up and then broke down.
I don't know, she said. I have a house.
I don't know what to do.
Now I lost my phone.
She was thinking that she couldn't register because she didn't have a phone call-her tracking number.
She just needs a hug.
Thankfully I was there, but the people at our federal emergency response authority are still open.
At about 10: 30 p. m.
They took the lady away.
The lady needs a hug, a private one, but she needs a hug from the federal government to realize that we will stay with you.
Look, I won't run away from what the mayor said.
The federal emergency response authority must stand up.
Funding from the federal government must be supported.
President Trump must stand up.
I hope we can put the border aside and close the government. -
Sorry, we can take a look at this catastrophic emergency as these people need a hug. They really do.
KORNACKI: Well, it's clear that the storm is still the front and center, but as the storm fades, it's going to be a political issue here, what exactly will constitute the long term
The federal response.
Sheila Jackson Lee, a congressman from Houston, thank you for your time.
Thank you, Steve.
Can I thank the volunteers?
I just want to say to you that people from different races, ethnic groups, religious backgrounds have come into the world of diversity.
I am proud of America, and I am proud of what Houston has done for these people. (CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI :. . . . . . It feels like everyone is looking at these pictures and seeing these pictures that will be shared in the past few days.
Thank you, honorable woman, for your time.
We will now try again with NBC's Kerry Sanders.
He's in a rescue helicopter.
They circled over Beaumont, Texas.
Kerry, if you can hear me, tell us what you saw there.
NBC reporter Kerry Sanders: OK, we're on the Customs and Border Protection plane now.
This is the air and sea operations unit.
We went to Beaumont and to Port Arthur where we could find two victims here.
Now this victim is paralyzed.
In the noise of this plane, I have talked to him as much as possible.
We will try to ask him a question, but he told me that because he was paralyzed, if it weren't the warm embrace of the federal government to save him, as we had just heard the guests say, he will still suffer in the water.
In some cases, the water level in the chest.
Let me see, they gave him some EKGs.
They are monitoring his health.
They are monitoring his health.
Let me see if I can (INAUDIBLE)How are you?
Male :(INAUDIBLE)
Sanders: how do you feel when you see the helicopter coming and the team coming to save you?
I don't know. (INAUDIBLE)made it out. SANDERS: OK.
It was a bit difficult for me to hear him in the helicopter, but you might be able to hear him.
We have another one on our side. This aircraft (INAUDIBLE)
Airborne all day.
In fact, they started on Monday.
The weather was just right. they were working in Houston.
Then they moved to Katie, but when they went to Katie today, everything was going on in the bormont and Port Arthur.
They keep running operations 24 hours a day.
We are with them now when they are ready to come in and I think we will land near the hospital.
I'm not even sure which city we're in right now.
But Steve, this is the dynamic operation of all the different aircraft in the air.
This is from CBP.
But when we see the aircraft in the area, you can see that the Texas Air National Guard is also there.
You have a Coast Guard helicopter.
In fact, there are some sheriff's planes that don't even really set up with hoists and garbage to get people up, and they're actually in a landing area for helicopter pilots in a not traditional area.
We are now landing in the landing area, and if you look out of the window now, you can see that there is an ambulance waiting and the ambulance will take the patient away immediately, he is taking off from the plane now, go to the hospital.
So Steve, this is almost every way you look, like this all day.
Okay, here comes NBC's Kerry Sanders.
The hospital, located above Beaumont, has now landed.
Thank you, Kerry.
We have a little rest here.
However, one day after his storm trip,
President Trump traveled to Missouri today to try to promote tax reform.
He wanted some sort of legislative victory on the board, but at least for today he did not provide any details.
He is also dealing with some criticism about his trip to Texas yesterday. That is ahead.
In addition, Trump's pardon for Chief Joe apayo was criticized by both sides.
Chris Christie said he would not do so, and senior Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee said the Arpaio pardon could be an ominous sign in the Russian investigation.
Quoting Trump, Axios called him "an incredible president who has shrunk ".
He was blocked by Congress on health care and the border wall.
Even according to a new focus group among his own voters, his presidency has become increasingly disappointing.
Finally, the hard ball round table will tell me three things here that I don't know.
This is a hard ball. where is the action. (
Business break)
KORNACKI: Well, President Trump's budget proposal will cut federal funding for agencies that help with disaster relief, just as Hurricane Harvey called for action.
The Washington Post notes that Trump's proposed budget will cut funding from the Department of Housing and Urban Development, which helps to rebuild homes after natural disasters, in addition, there are also the National Meteorological Administration and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Many of Trump's proposed cuts will weaken the federal government's funding for the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina 12 years ago.
We will be back soon. (
Business break)
KORNACKI: Welcome back to hard ball.
As most people in the United States continue to focus on the situation in Texas, President Trump turned from commander-in-chief to chief salesman today.
Today, in Missouri, President Obama has returned to the political arena and worked hard for tax reform.
There is no specific content in the speech, more about why the reform should happen, not the details about how the reform should happen.
He called on Congress to Unite. (
Start Video Editing)
US President Donald Trump: So let's, or at least try, the partisan gesture behind us, come together as Americans and create a 21st century tax law that our people deserve. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: but a few minutes before he made an appeal to the unity that you just heard, he was directly targeting Democrat Senator Claire macaskiir of Missouri, who will be re-elected in 2018. Let`s watch. (
Start Video Editing)
Trump: We have to, we have no choice, we have to lower our taxes.
Your Senator Claire macaskiir, she has to do it for you.
If she doesn't do it for you, you have to get her out of the office. (
Cheers and applause)(END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: one day after his visit to Texas, the president is refocusing on tax reform.
Recently, Glenn Thrush, a White House correspondent at The New York Times and political analyst at MSNBC, joined me.
Glen, there are two very different scenes here, obviously yesterday in Texas, Missouri.
But in terms of the politics the president is asking for today, he wants Congress to keep pushing ahead with tax reform as they return to town.
How much has happened in Texas in terms of Congress and has to respond to that, to do so, to give some money, how much of it will undermine Congress's ability to act on anything else, including tax reform?
Glen Thrush, political analyst at MSNBC: Oh Steve, this is a good question.
Look, we 've covered-those who have been here for too long have covered a lot of government closures.
In fact, we have reported the tea party movement on the mountain since 2010.
What they mean is that every time you increase your spending, every time you increase your spending by one dollar, they often ask for a dollar cut.
The same is true of tax cuts.
If you want to cut taxes, you have to offset them with cuts.
If you consider both of these things at the same time, massive tax cuts, plus massive tax cuts-again, Governor Abbott is referring to $100 billion --
Plus the recovery plan, you throw a bunch of other stuff on it, and as it happens in these bills, you mess up your budget completely.
So, there's really a doctor. Jekyll and Mr.
What happened here at Hyde is completely split in the government.
By the way, you have a budget for Mick muwani, and you just mentioned which projects are not providing community development block grants for HUD, which will never happen and are very specific, by the way.
So, the budget documents they release are fairly specific.
The tax cuts were very vague, adding to the deficit.
So the president and the entire Republican Party will have to decide whether they are a big spender or a cut.
That's where I think the whole package will end up in big trouble, and I'm referring to the tax package. KORNACKI: Yes. Spending vs.
Tax cuts, I remember those debates in the Bush-era Republican Party.
Glen Thrush from the White House, thank you, Glenn.
Now, Selena Maxwell has joined me.
She is director of progressive programming at SiriusXM and director of forward-step media for the Clinton campaign.
Chris Buskirk is the editor and publisher of the conservative website "Great America" and also "Great America: How about conservatism
Missed 2016 election
"Well, Chris, let me start with you, this question that Glenn just raised seems to be a philosophical issue for the Republican Party of the Trump era, when Congress returns in September, the problem may peak.
On the other hand, there has been an unprecedented disaster in Texas to the state of Luis Anna, which will require some huge federal funds.
On the other hand, you asked the president today to say, hey, I want tax reform, I want tax cuts.
You're going to have a problem, how do you pay for tax cuts, especially given the considerable cost of cleaning up in Texas?
When it comes to Republican priorities, is it necessary to give anything here?
Chris buskirk from the United States
Yes, I don't know.
This is the debate we have been having about the right wing for 20 years.
This is nothing new.
The problem that Republicans in Congress have always faced is that they want to eat cakes, and they want to eat cakes, that is, they want to talk sternly about spending cuts, I want to tell their constituents what they want to hear about tax cuts, but they are not willing to do both at the same time.
They are reluctant to walk and chew gum.
I think you are right that they have to admit this fact.
By the way, it's not just Republicans.
This is the way the system works.
Democrats also play the same game.
Everyone wants to spend money.
Everyone wants to cut taxes to make voters happy.
But you can't have both.
KORNACKI: where should the donation be?
Sorry people in Texas, the Republican Party's position should be, isn't that enough of what you're asking?
Or should it be led by the tax side? BUSKIRK: No. No. No.
No, I think-no, of course not.
I think it's clear.
I think there should be bipartisan support, what is happening in Texas is a unique situation, it is the act of God and the state needs to respond in a proper way, give Texas the help it needs to get back up and recover from the hurricane.
To be honest, I don't think that changed the debate about taxes and taxes.
Expenditure or budget.
This is what happens every few years.
To be honest, this may be a factor that needs long-term consideration.
The term budget plan, because we know the hurricane is going to happen, we need to deal with the hurricane honestly in a federal budget way.
But Republicans also need to acknowledge the fact that yes, on the one hand, tax cuts will stimulate economic growth, which will also increase taxes.
We already knew that.
But at the same time, they can't be tough on spending cuts and then don't.
This will be given at some point.
We have $20 trillion in federal debt and at some point we need to seriously consider reducing it.
There has been a lot of discussion about it, but there is not much in terms of dealing with its specific plans.
KORNACKI: Well, we also want to share an interesting thing here, what the president said today in Missouri.
His own constituents, at least some of them, are also talking about him. Look at this.
In a focus group in Pittsburgh last night, Trump voters described their disappointment with the months before the president took office.
That's how they described him. (
Start Video Editing)
Unidentified man: outrageous.
Male: extremely disappointed.
Man: unique.
Unidentified male: out of scale.
Woman: crazy. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: one voter said the president had covered up his own agenda. Let`s watch. (
Start Video Editing)
Unidentified male: The most disappointing thing for me is that he is such a flawed person who expresses many of the values that I hold dear, and the Messenger overpowers this message.
I hope he is on the other side of the place I value because it will be better for my favorite career. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: the focus group was conducted by pollster Peter Hart on behalf of Emory University.
We will have more things, but it is very interesting.
We will prepare more clips for you on the show.
I ask you, Selena.
Trump's voters, criticism is harsh.
But I noticed that they don't seem to care much about the policy either, but about the style.
Selena Maxwell, former director of the Clinton campaign's progressive media: Yes. Yes.
KORNACKI: I think from a Democrat's point of view, if you're talking about the people who voted for Trump, their criticism is style, what Democrats have to offer them
Will we do better?
Maxwell: I do think it's important to talk about his behavior, because I think it's dangerous for a word they don't say in their mouth. Right?
I think many of the things that they have highlighted in criticizing Donald Trump are related to his temperament and his adaptation to the office, for example, tweet about foreign policy early in the morning or do something that may subvert the legislative process of Congress.
I think these things, those things that have a real impact on people's lives, their security Foreign policy is something you can't tweet about.
You can't sit next to your pants.
Donald Trump has done this in the last eight months.
I think it's about people who even voted for him.
I think it is important that you have someone who does not undermine government institutions and our democratic norms, but also to be true to our expectations of the president.
Donald Trump did not meet that standard.
I think that's what you see in these focus groups.
KORNACKI: It's interesting, though, because when I look back at the campaign-I don't know these people in particular here, but I looked at some poll numbers today.
We 've been talking about a lot of voters who don't like Trump.
They don't like Clinton either, they pursue Trump, they pursue change.
This is obviously a big part of it.
But when you see the extent to which they don't like him and still vote for him, these people say he has no sense of decency, they think he is dishonest and they think he is incapable, they did not think he was qualified.
They voted for him.
When I see this, what I want to say is, is there something deeper that binds them to him? That's true. maybe we don't have to see it now?
Maxwell: I do think it's a dynamic that people want him to accept the challenge of being president of the United States.
Of course, you are not president until you really become president.
So, when you are really in the office, you are the commander in chief, there are certain expectations for etiquette, behavior, not just style, but your behavior in the office, how do you deal with foreign leaders, how do you talk to the American public, you are not lying every time for small things and big things.
So I think, as we often talk about in the media, the American public may expect him to turn or change.
But this will not happen.
The Donald Trump we saw in the campaign last year is Donald Trump now at the White House.
Next year, he will be Donald Trump at the White House, unless something unforeseen happens.
I find it interesting that voters who voted in favor of Donald Trump proposed impeachment, saying that he might be removed or impeached.
That's what Trump's voters say.
I think that is particularly interesting in the eight months you have been in the chair. KORNACKI: Yes.
Tonight, I see another new poll showing that quite a few Trump voters are not even sure if he will end his term.
Again, this is a fascinating focus group.
We will have more in the future.
Thanks to the two for joining, Selena Maxwell, Chris Buskirk.
Next: President Trump's pardon for Sheriff Joe alpaio continues to be negatively commented by Republicans, although some Democrats say that fear may be a sign of Russia's future.
This is a hard ball. where is the action. (
Business break)
KORNACKI: Welcome back to hard ball.
Donald Trump's close friend, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, is the latest Republican to dispute the president's decision to pardon former Arizona Sheriff Joe alpaio.
In a column in USA Today
Ed, Jonathan Turley, a law professor, calls it pardon-citation-"unnecessary and unwise," but also says-citation-"it's trivial compared to past abuse of pardon.
He wrote: "The president has repeatedly used this power for personal, political and family interests.
Many of Trump's critics now say the pardon for Arpaio may also indicate Trump's willingness to use the power of pardon in Russian investigations.
This is Adam Shiff, the highest Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee last night. (
Start Video Editing)REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D)
California: In this case, this pardon sends a message, because of course, the case against Arpaio is not over yet and he has not even been sentenced, I think this is most likely intentional and for others I will protect you if you have my support and if you are with me
In fact, I will not even wait until the end of the criminal proceedings to use the right of pardon. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KORNACKI: Jonathan Tully, professor of law at George Washington University, joined me.
Thank you, Professor Turley.
I really like your job.
I think it's fair-
Very thoughtful, very knowledgeable.
I asked you this.
You wrote in this article we quoted that your pardon for Arpaio is not fanatical, but, from the point of view, we see a worse situation in terms of pardon.
Let me take a step back and ask you this question.
We have a court system in this country.
We have judges, we have lawyers, we have trials, we have juries.
Why should we have a presidential pardon?
What is the purpose of the presidential pardon?
Jonathan Tully, constitutional lawyer at George Washington University: Well, this has been debated by lawmakers.
Some policymakers do not want to give the president the same power that the king has.
They actually talked about the president's use of the right to pardon to cover up his crimes.
So, all of this is happening.
But they think it is necessary to bring elements of kindness and humanity to the criminal system.
They believe that for those who have been sentenced unfairly or even unfairly convicted in a few cases, the president will be the last possible resource.
As far as Arpaio is concerned, he is neither.
He was right to be found in contempt.
Of course, he was not actually sentenced. Yes.
Now, obviously, first of all, there is a question, what is the original intention of the right to pardon?
How Trump used it here.
But another thing, which we mentioned in our introduction, is that people are looking forward to what happened here with the Russian probe and Mueller.
We know the investigation is troubling Trump.
If Donald Trump is looking at the investigation now and says, you know, I don't want this to go any further and I want to close it, is it possible for him to do so with the right to pardon?
Well, he can't turn it off.
But the right to pardon will certainly upset prosecutors.
You can use pardon tactically.
The most important power of the prosecutor is the transfer of witnesses.
People like manafut and Flynn are the most obvious targets for prosecutors.
What they do is to find a crime.
It could be-they could charge that it could be an unrelated crime, they would press and they would say, you know, it might not be something that we would normally Sue, but in your case, we will do so unless you present evidence to your superiors, including potential presidents.
The tactical pardon eliminates this coercive ability.
It basically tells people like Manafort that it's your pardon and you don't have to cooperate anymore.
But, aside from the ethics of tactical pardon, the key to tactical pardon is that it has to happen now.
I mean, the window is closing.
In particular, Manafort, these investigators seem to be reaching out to the parties.
If you want to remove the pressure of pardon, it's time.
I think if he did, most people would think it was an abuse of that power.
Steve kornacki, MSNBC host: That's the problem because-I mean, the political question is how will voters react?
Will his poll numbers fall?
Will his ability to win a second term decline?
Will Republican chances hit in 2018?
But, in addition to such political issues, if there is a consensus in the political system that there is any other way to think that the president or any of the presidents abused the right to pardon?
It's really an impeachment or an election.
As my article says, the president abused it in an incredible way.
You know, Harding pardoned a guy named Wolf Lupo.
He was actually a mob killer and re-joined a mob war in New York.
These are all outrageous abuses.
Just because you have discretion doesn't mean you can't abuse it, it may have something to do with impeachment.
If people think that your use of the right to pardon is a tactical impediment to the investigation of your own actions, it can clearly become a concern for Congress.
KORNACKI: Okay.
Jonathan telle from George Washington University-thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.
Thank you, Steve. KORNACKI: OK.
Next, he was called The Incredible President of shrinking.
I think they used to call Bill Clinton Time magazine, June.
Either way, Donald Trump is in trouble at the end of the summer, and Republicans and many of his own voters seem to be thinking about something wrong. That`s next.
You're watching the ball. (
Business break)
KORNACKI: Welcome back to hard ball.
What happened during the Trump pa presidency?
In Axios today, Mike Allen wrote about what he called the incredibly shrinking president.
He wrote that the most powerful people in the world suddenly became powerless.
There seems to be more and more opposition to Trump.
House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell are on the tax front.
Gary Cohen and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson responded to charlottsville.
Of course, the military imposed a trans-gender ban on him.
The court, Congress, ceo, foreign leader.
Where are the presidents and Republicans heading for the fall?
Join me now, the hard ball round table.
Noah Rothman, deputy editor-in-chief of Review magazine, Catelyn Huey
Burns is a political journalist for "really clear politics," and Philip Bo is a political journalist for the "Washington Post.
Noah, bring us into the Republican world.
You're Paul Ryan, you're Mitch McConnell, and you thought you won the lottery in last November.
We control everything.
We want to pass on all these things.
This is the actual situation of President Trump as president.
Can you come up with a strategy at this point?
Noah Rothman, deputy editor-in-chief of Review magazine: no
You can't come up with a strategy for tomorrow, let alone a strategy for the next year, or 2018, or 2020.
Yes, it's a paralysis for Republicans.
As I said a few days ago, Trump's election was a torture of tantalos.
The agenda is correct.
All of a sudden, they think all these things they give up, tax cuts, health care, are out of reach.
Now, they see it, but they will always be destroyed by the efforts of this president, you know, positioning themselves.
KORNACKI: I mean, Kaitlyn, it seems to be an issue with Donald Trump, it's still an open issue for me, how interested he is in achieving any legislation-I mean, he wants to do health care.
He wants to do tax reform.
But none of the jobs are there.
This does not seem to be his real agenda. CAITLIN HUEY-
Political reporter Burns: That's right. that's right.
But, you know, it's interesting-I'm trying to think about the consequences of him because he's an unconventional president.
On the agenda, however, Republicans are more interested than the president in passing their legislative programs.
So they won't vote against tax reform measures just to oppose the president, because it's not in their best interest.
They are also looking at polls that show that if Congress does not achieve anything, they will take responsibility for the lack of achievement.
So, in a way, I think their own responsibility will help the president because he won't sign what they sent him. KORNACKI: Yes.
I mean, Philip, I just feel like Donald Trump-his election last year, trying to get an idea of where he is now politically, and we know what the poll numbers look like.
However, for me, sometimes I feel that there may be some questions that need to be asked and explore the nature, the reasons for Donald Trump's support, what he is digging, and whether we have the ability to fully measure it at this point.
Philip Bo, political correspondent for The Washington Post: Yes, what I'm going to say is that you wrote some good articles.
Oh, thank you.
BUMP: I think one of the things that happened here, I have to disagree with Noah, and one of the things that happened was that Donald Trump won the presidential election.
It was a surprise that he won the presidential election.
He won the game by a narrow margin.
When he takes office, I think the leader on Capitol Hill is looking forward to a president who may come forward and be a strong president who may guide things, but he is still weak and weak.
I mean, I don't think there's any difference in what Mike Allen mentioned this morning.
He's always weak.
So, I think if Congress comes forward and says, this is our bill, sign it, Trump will sign it.
We see him doing this in the House health care bill.
He held a celebration for Bill in the Rose Garden, and he later said bill was mean.
He doesn't care what's in the policy because he doesn't have any strong opinions on these things.
I think Congress is realizing, oh, he's not going to lead us in that, so let's do what we need to do anyway. KORNACKI: Yes.
I mean, it's an arrangement we 've never seen before.
So, I think we're finding out how it works-it actually works if it does.
We will continue to discuss this.
The round table is going to stay up late.
Next, let's tell you about the focus group in Pittsburgh.
Trump's plight did not escape some of his supporters.
We got more from the focus group.
Some of Trump's own voters say he has let them down.
This is a hard ball. where is the action. (
Business break)
KORNACKI: Welcome back to hard ball.
The focus group of Pittsburgh voters provided more information last night.
Among them were six supporters of Hillary Clinton, a supporter of Jill Stein, and last year's vote for Donald Trump.
Trump's voters are concerned about his direction as president. Take a look. (
Start Video Editing)
Unidentified male: What drives me crazy is all the tweets he sends.
It made me crazy because the TV was on all the time and why didn't he quit tweeting.
Woman: crazy. MODERATOR: Why?
Unidentified women: too much on Twitter. It has to stop.
Host: Did you vote for him?
Unfortunately, yes.
Unidentified male: although I think he will learn soon and be delegated to top people, he has not done so.
Unidentified male: I will still postpone the verdict.
His term is short and I hope things will get better but it is unique now.
He must be his greatest enemy.
He is no worse at achieving political goals. (END VIDEO CLIP)
I'm back now for the round table tonight, Noah, Kaitlyn and Philip.
Philip, what I want to be impressed with is that we talked about this earlier.
This is a charge by his own voters against his actions.
It's his-almost a fundamental question about what kind of leader will do that. BUMP: Right.
KORNACKI: How deep do you think it is from his point of view of defecting?
BUMP: I think there are two parts of Trump's foundation, one is reluctant, one is hopeful of voting for him on last November, and they are more moderate Republicans, or a Republican who voted because he was a Republican candidate.
Then Trump's core base.
So when we talk about Trump's supporters, they are usually the ones we think.
The people in that video are like the first ones.
One thing I think we see from the first group is that we see a significant drop in approval levels and they are willing to say that he is good at leadership.
All of these roles, we 've seen the decline of Republicans in this regard, and I think these are in this category. KORNACKI: Yes.
No, Kettering, when I say that, I can already look forward to seeing it on Twitter, and everyone calls me the apologist for Trump.
I'm not doing this to say he's invincible.
I don't think he's invincible.
I just don't know that we fully understand support, and the reason I say this is because we never had a president with more voters elected to have a deeper negative view of that person.
Trump's negative views, even among some of his voters last year, I was watching earlier, and they said he had no sense of decency. HUEY-BURNS: Right.
He is not qualified.
He has no confidence.
It's not just-hey, he's not good. She`s not.
I'm just-I don't know what we totally understand to get them to vote for him. HUEY-BURNS: Exactly.
From September to October, I was also watching the vote.
Many people said he was dishonest before voting for him.
I think the emotion expressed by the woman in that group, she said she was disappointed with him and used all these adjectives, did you vote for him?
Yes, I know.
However, my question is-you know, when we talk about whether or not Republicans will keep a distance from him, I think Trump still has a long leash even when it comes to his Republican critics.
Last week, when many of them criticized his response to Charlottsville, he gave a speech on Afghanistan and they came back to praise him.
If he can go out and successfully market tax reform, I think you will see some of them coming back.
We have to take a break.
Noah got all the time in the next block.
The round table was staying with us.
You're watching the ball. (
Business break)
Noah, you're in that focus group.
If so, describe Trump in one word.
Rothman: ready for the show.
That's two.
Noah, Catelyn, Philip. thank you.
"Everything about Chris Hayes" is starting now.
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